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Home » Bay Area Autocross Forum » General Autocross Discussion » Nationals and SFR
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122451 is a reply to message #122449] Tue, 06 November 2018 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tony_rod is currently offline  tony_rod
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From: *hfc.comcastbusiness.net
Ophitoxaemia wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 11:41
Was SFR's dynasty due to being bigger than the other regions?
If so, why did SFR's program get bigger than other regions?

Probably. Centrally located sites with regular attendance in the 200+ range. I wasn't a part of that but it's simple math. The more people you have attending, the more competition there is, the more people push & develop to get good.

Ophitoxaemia wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 11:41
I've been told that the Kelly's had a lot to do with that. Another reason I thought was the weather- I was initially driving in 25+ events per year and in every month. How could another region ever compete with our weather?

Regardless of who's in charge, having sites in the middle of heavily occupied regions will produce higher attendance. Couple that with the weather and we have a constant stream of interested people attending events. It's been stated many times that if we were to run at a decent central-bay site again, attendance would be sky high.

Crows, Marina, etc are too far for people to travel consistently, not to mention 30+ rounds of autocross. We don't have enough people to sustain that. Honestly it can cost as much as a track day to do that for some, and newbs like that value more. I don't blame them.


'15 STX #1/87

[Updated on: Tue, 06 November 2018 12:30]

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Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122452 is a reply to message #122451] Tue, 06 November 2018 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JourdanWithaU is currently offline  JourdanWithaU   United States
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From: *guckenheimer.com
Certainly spoiled with racing at Candlestick, Great America, Oakland Coliseum, and Golden Gate Fields. Many complained about the surfaces. But no one complained about the distance.

Jourdan R.
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Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122453 is a reply to message #122452] Tue, 06 November 2018 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bpstanaway is currently offline  bpstanaway   United States
Messages: 16
Registered: March 2016
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From: 158.184.198*
Tony nailed it, and with better tact than I had written up. Loss of easily accessible sites is the biggest change from the "glory days" (that I wasn't around for either), Sonoma and Laguna are very attractive options for casual enthusiasts.

It's still a feat to place top 5 or even 10 in PAX at a local no matter what you drive, lots of regions and programs don't have that level of competition of consistent national trophy drivers & cars showing up nearly every event. There's a reason we get people coming in from out of the area to run Crows and even Marina local events.

Course design doesn't deepen talent pool, attracting and maintaining people who want the challenge, seat time, test n tune, gurus willing to help drivers and setup, that's the key to driving a more competitive local community. The ingredients are still there, it ebbs and flows as all grassroots motorsports does.


#39 STX FR-S
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[Updated on: Tue, 06 November 2018 12:49]

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Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122454 is a reply to message #122452] Tue, 06 November 2018 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
atcovan is currently offline  atcovan   
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From: *lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net
JourdanWithaU wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 12:26
Certainly spoiled with racing at Candlestick, Great America, Oakland Coliseum, and Golden Gate Fields. Many complained about the surfaces. But no one complained about the distance.

Or the heat. Add Pleasanton to that list of great(or not)sites.


Jim
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122466 is a reply to message #122451] Mon, 12 November 2018 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pault1 is currently offline  pault1   United States
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From: *hsd1.ca.comcast.net
tony_rod wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 12:16
Ophitoxaemia wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 11:41
Was SFR's dynasty due to being bigger than the other regions?
If so, why did SFR's program get bigger than other regions?

Probably. Centrally located sites with regular attendance in the 200+ range. I wasn't a part of that but it's simple math. The more people you have attending, the more competition there is, the more people push & develop to get good.

Ophitoxaemia wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 11:41
I've been told that the Kelly's had a lot to do with that. Another reason I thought was the weather- I was initially driving in 25+ events per year and in every month. How could another region ever compete with our weather?

Regardless of who's in charge, having sites in the middle of heavily occupied regions will produce higher attendance. Couple that with the weather and we have a constant stream of interested people attending events. It's been stated many times that if we were to run at a decent central-bay site again, attendance would be sky high.

Crows, Marina, etc are too far for people to travel consistently, not to mention 30+ rounds of autocross. We don't have enough people to sustain that. Honestly it can cost as much as a track day to do that for some, and newbs like that value more. I don't blame them.


Well, the really big numbers did not happen locally AFAIK in the 70's and 80's in the SFR trophy domination era. Yes, Kelly's had a lot to do with it IMO. From both a facilitation standpoint supporting the program, as well as encouraging others, setting examples, and writing about the program in The Wheel and later the Pylon.

I started getting heavily into a-x locally pretty close to when James did, in the late 90's. Over the following decade was when we had the yearly 200 average, 300+ big events. That was when SFR's trophy takes had already started to decrease at Nationals though, as the total attendance at Nationals grew while SFR's attendance did not. The Nationals spent a lot of time even further away than Topeka and now Lincoln, because the population center of the country was further East. Making the SFR dominance then even more amazing as that didn't incent West Coast'rs to travel that far.

I did at least one year with nearly 40 "local" events, which was easier because I was nearly mid-way between Sac and SFR's regular venues. I totally agree that the short drive to the East Bay venues of Oakland and Albany drove attendance there much higher. But as Tony has mentioned in other discussions, the one-timer attendees don't drive the competition level, it's the consistent people who are really into it, who stay around long enough to improve themselves and work their way up the placement ladder. Agreed that if you can get the travel down to an hour or under, the numbers grow.

I'm looking to see if there is historical data about size of the Region and size of the autocross cohort within SFR, but so far no luck, and it's probably not worth really serious archaeology.
tony_rod wrote on Tue, 06 November 2018 12:16
Honestly it can cost as much as a track day to do that for some, and newbs like that value more. I don't blame them.

We've had other threads about costs at baautox. A handwave comparison, track days vs. autocross, is
Autocross:



    Event fee 50 x 12= 600
    Gas cost 240 miles roundtrip 30 x 12= 360
    Tire cost, 4 tires/year =1050 average of small car at $850, Mustang at $1250, RE71Rs installed
    misc hotels, etc. =400 assumes maybe 6 overnights, and you were gonna eat/drink anyway so not included.
    ______________
    2450 or ~$200/day for weekend events.


    Track days 250 x 6 =1500 Daily cost varies quite a bit but $250 was common 10 years ago
    Tire cost, 8 tires/year =2100 Could go up or down based on tire selection
    Brake pads, 2 sets/year 200 x 2 =400 assumes 2 sets of Hawk HP+, could go up or down, track pads cost more
    Gas, Laguna, t'hill, Sonoma, same avg =360 assumes same average distance but an extra tank for each track day
    misc hotels, etc. =200 fewer trips but more exhaustion, stay overnight probable.
    ______________
    4560 or ~$750/day.

I don't see any way to say that a medium-serious track day (a.k.a. crack day) habit is nearly as inexpensive as autocross. I didn't go through HP+ even one set/year at autocross, and very high numbers of a-x events might mean up to two sets of tires/year; but likewise more tracking probably means more tires & pads there too.

Beginners don't seem to take the total costs into consideration, nor do they figure out that an autocross is pretty much a full day no matter how you slice it. They're newbs. And cost per hour of competition is slam-dunk for track days.


Paul T. Ford body, Yamaha power - describes my car pretty well, too! Smile Returned to racing the STi-STU but still that #35 you love
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122467 is a reply to message #122466] Tue, 13 November 2018 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skarillo   United States
Messages: 72
Registered: June 2015
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From: 198.245.241*
pault1 wrote on Mon, 12 November 2018 23:59



    Event fee 50 x 12= 600
    Gas cost 240 miles roundtrip 30 x 12= 360
    Tire cost, 4 tires/year =1050 average of small car at $850, Mustang at $1250, RE71Rs installed
    misc hotels, etc. =400 assumes maybe 6 overnights, and you were gonna eat/drink anyway so not included.
    ______________
    2450 or ~$200/day for weekend events.




    Track days 250 x 6 =1500 Daily cost varies quite a bit but $250 was common 10 years ago
    Tire cost, 8 tires/year =2100 Could go up or down based on tire selection
    Brake pads, 2 sets/year 200 x 2 =400 assumes 2 sets of Hawk HP+, could go up or down, track pads cost more
    Gas, Laguna, t'hill, Sonoma, same avg =360 assumes same average distance but an extra tank for each track day
    misc hotels, etc. =200 fewer trips but more exhaustion, stay overnight probable.
    ______________
    4560 or ~$750/day.


The mistake with this logic is thinking that value is entirely driven by dollar. How does that money investment translate to time spent racing? If autocross didn't eat up as much time as it does getting to events / making sure they run smoothly then you would see an increase in participation. When you need people to invest entire weekends for ~10 minutes of seat time and 2+ hours of working that time cost adds up quickly.


Ryan - 93 Economy Street
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122469 is a reply to message #122467] Tue, 13 November 2018 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tony_rod is currently offline  tony_rod
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skarillo wrote on Tue, 13 November 2018 09:41

The mistake with this logic is thinking that value is entirely driven by dollar. How does that money investment translate to time spent racing? If autocross didn't eat up as much time as it does getting to events / making sure they run smoothly then you would see an increase in participation. When you need people to invest entire weekends for ~10 minutes of seat time and 2+ hours of working that time cost adds up quickly.

Yep that's exactly it. The value here is more than just pure dollar. If the drive to and from is equal, and the time invested at each location is the same, there is much more value in being at "world-famous" tracks. Not only that, but at a track day you know exactly what you're going to get. There are far more variables at play in autocross. It's a hard sell. Much easier the closer the venue is. The closer it is the more likely you are going to get the casual people. More casual people, more chances to turn them into intermediate or serious attendees.

Car people are not frugal if the investment is worth the cost.


'15 STX #1/87
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122473 is a reply to message #122414] Tue, 13 November 2018 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ophitoxaemia is currently offline  Ophitoxaemia   United States
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I was a one-timer at my first event. Just once I said. =)

I did a lot more track events early on because of the seat time. But I had at least two close calls that I was fortunate to walk away from. It was after that the 11/10ths nature of autocross became a better/saner match for me.

SFR used to have a school, which is where I got the seat time I needed to advance, both as a student and then as an instructor. It was good for my students too.








Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122474 is a reply to message #122473] Wed, 14 November 2018 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tony_rod is currently offline  tony_rod
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Ophitoxaemia wrote on Tue, 13 November 2018 17:04
SFR used to have a school, which is where I got the seat time I needed to advance, both as a student and then as an instructor. It was good for my students too.

The region has schools available from SCCA Starting Line and EVO. What's missing is a lower-cost alternative. Look for that possibly next year.


'15 STX #1/87
Re: Nationals and SFR [message #122476 is a reply to message #122474] Wed, 14 November 2018 17:27 Go to previous message
red5racing is currently offline  red5racing   United States
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From: 12.33.222*
SFR ran schools for years, at some point they stopped happening, not sure why.
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